Put a Stamp on That! | Doberman Dan
Today's guest is Doberman Dan. He's the King of Print and has had a wild career in direct response copywriting. There are some gold nuggets in this interview for retailers... I'd love to hear your thoughts on how you can apply what Dan is talking about. You can find Dan at DobermanDan.com.
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Full transcript of the episode:
If I really wanted to blow him away, like, I
probably could have gotten 16 times, 20 times, maybe 30
times more orders if I would have done this...
You're listening to the Traffic Handler podcast.
I'm your host, Amy Biddle.
We're about getting new customers, making new sales
and growing your retail business with Ecommerce.
My guest today is Doberman Dan.
If you don't know Dan, you need to
Doberman Dan has been a serial entrepreneur and
direct response copywriter for more than 30 years.
He has worked in a variety of niches, but his
specialty has been the health, fitness and bodybuilding markets.
Dan has started four of
his own nutritional supplement businesses.
He sold three of them and he's
enjoyed two different bouts of mini retirement.
He's also been hired by a billion dollar
a year direct response marketing company to help
them start a brand new supplement division.
Dan has been publishing the
Doberman Dan Letter since 2011.
Many of the most successful marketers
in the world are his subscribers.
Dan has written hundreds of successful
ads, direct mail packages, websites, email
marketing campaigns, feature articles and newsletters.
So I'm just going to cut right to the interview.
Hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
My friend was saying that.
So he works with a lot of
clients in all kinds of different spaces,
consumer, business to business, everything.
But the one consistent thing you were seeing
on Facebook was like we're saying, first of
all, difficult to get something going once you
get it going, difficult to keep it going.
And then the big frustration is a lot of them
who do, as far as they know nothing wrong, get
their accounts wind up getting their accounts canceled.
Yes, for running ads that were approved
and everything was fine, according to Facebook.
I mean, he steers people there, could make it work.
But he's been more focused on YouTube and he
was just saying the same things that you were.
He also said he found the shorter videos.
Now I'm forgetting the name of the videos that appear,
the placements you place your video ad on other videos,
whatever those placements are called a relatively short video that
offers access to a video, which makes sense because they're
video people on YouTube or like a series of videos,
1234 space out every day.
One, two, three are content, four
is the offer has been successful.
He's also seen cheat sheets.
Offering cheat sheets in your
video had been very successful.
He said it appears to be that the quality
of the prospects or customers is better than Facebook.
When comparing lifetime customer values from Facebook
acquired people to YouTube, acquired people.
And now here's the thing that really piqued my
interest and then also made me feel discouraged at
the same time because I'm interested in this platform
for my own publishing business, right? Yes.
So he said one thing he's seen is
doing video placements or doing keywords versus just
letting Google's AI figure it out.
It's been much easier to scale when you
let Google's AI figured out versus selecting videos
for your placements and keyword stuff.
So that's exciting.
And he said that has converted
better and they found more traffic.
And that was the exciting part.
The discouraging part for me was it could take
several months of letting Google say I figured out,
which means you're burning through cash at that time.
You're burning through cash, right.
I only played around with YouTube ads very
briefly, and it's been a while ago.
And finding videos for placement was a challenge.
If you did it manually, it was a big challenge.
But there were tools you pay a
monthly fee for, and they would find
monetized videos according to certain keywords.
Well, now and I read this not
too long ago, my friend confirmed it.
Now, apparently YouTube has just monetized all videos previously,
you had to select whether you wanted ads to
appear on videos you were posting on YouTube.
Now it's just they monetized them all. Yeah.
And that was sometime last year, they made that switch
so that you really weren't in control about the ads
that showed up, which is good if you're a marketer.
And I guess if you're using
YouTube as revenue stream, that's good.
The way you're able to target your competitors,
that would be bad if you were posting
organically, like publishing organically on YouTube, no doubt.
I mean, your competitors show up, but now
we're down to the basics of business.
Who has a better list and who has a better offer.
That's exactly right.
Always down to the offer list of offers, man.
Robert Collier hit it over 100 years ago, and that's
determined our lives ever since then as marketers ever since
then, unless you're lucky enough for a brief period of
time to get in on some new channel when it's
just like back in the day, I'm so old, I've
even used Overture pay per click, as I doubt anybody
will even remember those.
I remember Overture, that they were acquired
by Yahoo, I think after that, right? Yeah.
I think there might have been a step in between that.
But they were early birds.
That was like shooting fish in a barrel.
And the same thing I got on Google AdWords when it
was brand new, too, back when it was still called AdWords.
That was like shooting fish in a barrel.
It was like put up the simplest
half baked ad, building a tweet.
You build a tweet and then you put it out there.
I remember that in paying whatever it was getting two
cent, three cent clicks, especially like I found I was
in the bodybuilding market back then, and you would just
identify something that's a hot seller at that time.
And back then, these supplements called Pro
Hormones, they were the hot seller.
The headline was like, whatever the
name of that product was.
Nor Androstenedione 19.
That was the headline. Awesome.
I don't even remember what the rest of the copy was.
We got it here. Click here.
I was like the worst possible ad you
could think of from a copywriting purpose.
But it was such a brand new medium, brand new channel.
And clicks were so cheap.
No, that actually is not a bad headline.
That's like an Ogilvy headline.
That's like, all right, we're going to take
all the sex appeal out of the headline.
We're going to just say the product name because anybody
who's in the buying phase of the awareness cycle, they're
going to be looking for that particular product.
And boom, you got them.
Because Google could make that match.
They could do it even better now.
But they were doing it even then 20 years ago.
Back then. Yeah.
And Gary Halbert used to call it, it was a lay down.
They were already looking for it because it
was the hottest thing in the market. Yes.
I was just lucky enough to be one of
the few who got in on that channel early.
So I wouldn't say that I had no competition.
Maybe I did.
It was very little competition.
You could outbid people, too.
Like, oh, Jeez, now I'm going to up my bid.
So now I'm paying a whole $0.05.
Now I'm in position number one.
Those days are gone from the big channels.
But I don't know, maybe those opportunities are still
available on stuff like TikTok and all the other
new ones that are escaping my mind.
Even older demographics.
I think that's the politically correct way of saying that
the older demographics like us, I call them Geezers.
There you go.
There are Geezers on Snapchat, too, and TikTok.
Well, yes, the older demographic.
When I called him Geezers, I was much younger
and it was much funnier than now that I'm
approaching that demographic, it's not so funny. Yeah.
Now it just hurts in the morning.
Yeah, it just hurts in the morning.
But yeah, even ten years ago, I think that demographic
was just I'm stereotyping and generalizing, but they were not
that savvy with some of the newer media and even
smartphones to an extent, not so much.
I mean, these days.
Yeah, they all have a smartphone.
They're on everything, you know.
And the other thing that the older demographics
have done with search, they change the nature
of search intent by speaking into their phones.
Everybody over the age of like 55, 58, they do
a search, they hold up their phone and they say,
hey, Google or whatever the thing is, hey, Siri.
Oh, don't answer me.
I don't know, Salami at a local deli.
It's all search.
And so what that's done, as far as Google
goes, is it's lengthened because you're not going to
type it in the same way you say it?
Remember back in the day we were looking for a handful
of keywords and then it was keyword phrases and now it's
like whole senses that nobody would ever type in.
But that voice model search changed everything as far
as search intent goes and really opened it up.
That makes perfect sense because
I've observed that going on.
I haven't saw one guy the other day using
Siri to turn on his flashlight on his phone.
They use that verbal search all the time.
But I never consider that
how that affects global search.
Yeah, it does.
And so the blog on your website, you've
got over 400 entries, I think, blog posts.
So that means that those longer searches,
Google is getting better at reading those.
And so you don't have to worry about well, I
put keywords in here, here and here, three at the
top, two in the middle, three at the bottom.
Like we used to have to do that hourglass thing.
We don't worry about that so much anymore.
And it's good that it's like that because
then Google's reading what we're writing for people.
And you I mean, I want to move into this direction.
You are the King of writing for people because a big part
of who you are and what you do has been in print.
That's absolutely people first. Yeah.
Because when I started I mean, really, that was
the only option available to what I call a
kitchen table entrepreneur or a bootstrap entrepreneur.
Somebody trying to get something going with very
little resources or no resources or no resources. Right.
This thing in your cranium. The ballast between your ears.
So, I mean, that's how I had to start.
I wanted a mail order business.
And I forget radio and TV.
It really wasn't an option
for a little bootstrap entrepreneur.
So the only thing I had available
were print ads in newspapers and magazines. Newspapers.
If it was a mass market thing, which I did
not start out in business selling mass market stuff in
magazines. It was more of a niche thing.
My first mail order business
was in the bodybuilding niche.
So back then there were plenty of
at least five, maybe seven bodybuilding magazines.
So small fractional page ads because there's no way I could
have afforded a full page ad, which the only thing you
could do is drive to the phone back then, call for
a free report or use the call to action of sending
a letter to request stuff to an address, dates me so
much and then following up with the sales letter.
So that's how I started.
That's what I got good at.
I did start online and with that particular
business, also in the bodybuilding niche, which was
an info business that later included supplements, too.
But I did start online either in late '96
or early '97, I don't recall which, and nobody
knew what they were doing back then online.
I just applied what I learned with print
ads and direct mail and applied it online
and email marketing and it worked.
But yeah, still to this day, except for a
short period of time, I never really abandoned print,
especially when it came to back end marketing, which
is just selling stuff to your existing customers.
I never really abandoned print because it still works.
Yeah, mailing stuff to people just works.
Most of the people who I work
with are in ecommerce find their people.
They sell them something, and
then they have their address.
I would love to see them mailing something that
somebody didn't pay for, like a postcard or it
doesn't have to be the expense of a catalog.
But Holy cow, talk about easy retargeting.
Oh, my gosh.
I'm looking to see if I still have it.
Amazon sent me a piece.
The biggest online retailer in the
world is using direct mail.
They sent me a piece, and at
Christmas time, they send out catalogs. Yeah.
And it's gorgeous.
It's thick, paper, matte finish.
I love that thing.
A lot of online businesses are using
mail more and more using mail.
I just read a report that a friend of mine
sent me who manages direct mail campaigns for companies.
And I'm going to probably forget the facts.
But like a lot of online businesses, what it says.
Amazon is not the only one researched
by the Direct Marketing Association shows that
44.4% of merchandisers increased their catalog circulation.
So a lot of online businesses have been using direct
mail or starting to use it more and more catalogs
postcards single mailings for single product stuff like that.
I mean, it definitely bears testing.
I mean, you've already got you've done
the hardest part, which is getting the
customer in the first place, right? Holy cow.
And it's hard.
It's getting harder.
Harder than I've ever seen it.
And I've been doing this stuff for a long time.
So you've already jumped a really big hurdle.
And if all you did was
communicate with them, got your order. Thank you.
Send them that email, your order is
shipped or it's shipping out this day.
And you sent the order and sent them what they ordered.
That's a big hurdle.
You've done what you said you're going to do and
you delivered what you said you were going to deliver.
Now you got a pretty
special relationship with that person.
And if you've gone a step above that
and use some really cool relationship building (us
copywriters, call it "copy") in your email.
This emotionally intimate, emotionally generating kind of copy in
your emails, and you send a really from
the heart, a really nice from the heart
thank you letter with the product you ship.
I mean, you've jumped a huge hurdle, and
now you've got a relationship with that person.
They know who you are.
That is a bigger hurdle these days.
They trust you because you did what
you said you were going to promise.
So now to capitalize on that trust mail
seems like a very good next step.
At the very least to test it, right? Absolutely.
If you know that your lifetime value
of a customer is a certain price
point, let's say you're selling something.
Let's say your average order value is
around $90 for whatever that is.
But over time, you know that your customer
is going to come back and buy two
more times in the span of two years.
First of all, why is it that long?
And second of all, you could
do tests with just postcards.
It doesn't even have to be a full
catalog, especially because you mentioned this just now.
The single item push of a product.
What's your best selling thing?
If they bought one, will they buy a second one?
Will they do it in 21 days versus 21 months?
I bet they will.
And staying in front of the postcards is
the cost of a stamp, plus the printing
of the postcard and the mailing.
I don't think that's above $1.75 now. Yeah.
And the thing about it is, we all love email marketing.
I mean, it can't get more convenient
and or immediate than email marketing. Yes.
In fact, I say we maybe I shouldn't project my issues upon
let me say, me, myself and I become have become too dependent
on it or like it too much for those reasons.
Like, oh, I got a brain fart of an idea.
Let's see if I can sell this... bang
out the email, shoot it out.
Something sent in the mail requires a bit more forethought
and planning and tad bit more savvy than that.
But we all love email marketing.
But I know I'm probably preaching the choir on this.
There are tons of issues with emails.
The number one being getting the darn thing delivered.
Yes, deliverability opened.
And like, oh, my goodness, the very least, you should
be testing some form of mail sent in hard copy
via the postal service to your customer list.
Because emails just they're not getting delivered
like they used to and they're not
getting opened like they used to.
And it's getting worse and worse, it appears.
So if you're just dependent upon that channel as a
communication method with your customers, especially your customers, you are
leaving a lot of money on the table.
I've done test after test after
test that has proven that.
Can I tell about a brief one?
Oh, yeah, I'm all ears.
So a guy in my space, or who was
in my space at the time was Dr.
Glenn Livingston, a psychologist.
So I sell marketing info improvement info to business
owners, and he was doing the same thing.
I won't be exactly right on
the numbers, but I'm really close.
So this is just, for example purposes.
I think he had like 25,000 people on his
email list, and that's all he ever did.
Just email his people.
And I said, Glenn, let's do a test.
Because I kept telling him, man, you should
at the very least test some direct mail.
And he was like, well, I don't know because
I don't know how to do it, man.
It really is as simple as sending an email.
It is simple as that.
You're not stuffing envelopes. I don't know.
Okay, so I'll do the test.
Let's do this.
We pitched my newsletter to his
list of 25,000 people by email.
And I think he sent either five emails or seven emails.
So whatever it was, five days in a row, seven days
in a row, a different email went out offering the Doberman
Well, was it the marketing Camelot back then?
I guess back then it was the newsletter
that had an online membership component, too.
So whatever it was, like I said, five
days of different emails or seven days of
different emails to this entire list.
Now here's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to take a random sample of 1000 people.
And that's key because a random sample is like,
I'm going to take every Nth name off of
your list until I get to 1000.
So whatever that's going to be out of the
list of 25, every 25 names, I guess every
25th name until I get to 1000.
And then I'm going to mail them the exact same thing.
We send them an email, but I'm going
to send it in a sales letter, right? Yes.
So 1000 direct mail pieces versus whatever it was.
Seven days of emails sent to a list of 25,000.
My 1000 piece direct mail pulled
in eight times more orders. Yup.
Than mailing his 25,000 person
email list seven different times.
I love that.
And if I really wanted to blow him
away, that was an Nth name select.
If I really wanted to blow him away,
like, I probably could have gotten 16 times,
20 times, maybe 30 times more orders.
If I would have done this: take the most recent buyers
off of his list, the ones who buy most frequently.
So who are multi buyers who bought two or more
times and the ones who bought is high priced up.
Glenn, give me the people who've bought the
most recently bought more than two products and
have bought your most expensive stuff.
Now that list would be like the
most super responsive list in direct mail.
But I didn't do that.
I could have gotten way higher conversions with that.
But just to prove a point to how much money been
leaving on the table, I only did the Nth name select.
That's phenomenal. I love that.
And do you know how few people do that?
I am on so many lists.
I'm on so many lists.
And only one time.
And it was two years ago, maybe three
years ago now somebody mailed me a letter.
It was just a letter.
There were no graphics.
There was nothing fancy.
It was a number down envelope with a return address.
And I think it was a two page letter on the inside.
It might have been shorter than that.
And it was the exact duplicate of an
email because I've recognized it that I had
just gotten in the last week or so.
And it was the exact same thing.
But it was just a very simple
printed letter type, no graphics, nothing fancy.
And nobody's doing that. Nobody.
And I try to talk people into doing it.
So I have to be totally transparent.
A long time ago, this young pastor of a Church
I was going to back then said, pay a lot
of attention to what the preacher is talking about, because
if he's preaching on something every week, preaching against the
evils of fill in the blanks, alcohol, he's a drunk. Preaching
about the evils of adultery, he's cheating on his wife.
So if I'm going to criticize, judge or condemn anybody
for not doing this, I need to leave and go
into the bathroom behind my office and look in the
mirror because I've got a great list.
I mean, you're a Knight in my list. I'm on your list.
I mailed you my wallet.
I don't know how much of my
money. I sent you. See, you're the perfect example.
I should be doing more direct mail to that list.
Those are my most responsive people.
I'm saying this publicly now.
I'm going to be doing more of that.
I am, too. Absolutely.
Because we're sitting here having this conversation about
how the bottom is falling out of email.
It's hard to get deliverability, can't count on it.
And postal mail is the thing.
Well, got to get me some number ten envelopes. Yes.
Because the projects that I have done that were
either well, the one that I was really successful
with was I bought a list, mailed out a
letter, and it was a bad letter.
It was ugly, bad grammar, really short.
But that didn't matter because I had a good list.
It just doesn't matter.
Bought something for $50 and turned
around and sold for $2,500.
Holy smoke. I know.
That's a pretty decent markup.
The power of a good list and a good offer. Right.
I'm just saying test it.
I mean, you don't have to start
out dumping 50,000 envelopes at the USPS.
I regularly did snail mail and my wife and
I at one point when I was really struggling
and living in this tiny one bedroom apartment in
Miami with nothing but a kitchen table, we hand
address number tens and stuffed envelopes.
But I don't want to scare anybody
off thinking they have to do that.
I mean, to send direct mail, it is
literally as easy to send an email.
There are what I call letter shops.
There are service providers that do this.
All you do is you send them what
you want to send in the mail.
You send a PDF of that to them.
I want this.
Whatever print on white paper, black ink.
I want the signature in blue or
I want the headline in red, whatever.
And you send in the PDF, tell them I want this
to go in a number ten, or if it's a postcard,
I want this size postcard sending the PDF, they print it
for you, they stuff it in an envelope, they put the
postage on, they do it all for you.
It really is simple.
And in fact, at the post office email@example.com, I forget
what the link says, but there's a link to providers.
On the USPS site, you can upload the list as
a CSV file and your PDF, and they'll make a
variety of sizes, postcards letters, stuff like that on USPS.
In small quantities, too.
Don't think like, oh, gosh, I got to send 10,000.
Do a small test.
I mean, if you really want to put
all the odds in your favor, do that.
Recency frequency, monetary, select the most recent
buyers who are multi buyers who have
bought your highest price point stuff.
And if that's a list of 50 people, no Biggie mail.
Those 50 a special offer in the mail. That's it.
I say in the snail mail, right?
Yes, I know.
They've closed in the past couple of years,
they closed several regional postal processing things.
And prior to that, first class mail was
getting almost sent from within the US.
It was getting almost everywhere in the US
in five days maximum, sometimes only three. Yeah.
But when they closed several of the regional processing
plants, it slowed it down a little bit.
But still, I mean, you get a high
delivery rate with first class mail, much more
so than we're getting with email.
Well, yeah, that's true.
And in fact, a couple of members of your organization,
your membership, are doing crazy things with envelopes and inserts
and all kinds of things to make sure that the
deliverability and open rate actually go up.
If you want me to show I won't show it in detail.
I got one right here.
Just to give an example.
It's handwritten, big old font, little stars on it
sticker has this little sticker on the back.
It's just to get attention, right?
It does get attention. Absolutely.
And for those podcast version and not the video
version, Dan just held up a hand decorated envelope.
Oh, yeah, I forgot those.
No, we're on both.
Granted, this isn't going out to thousands of people.
This was a direct mail piece sent to one person.
So he hand wrote a card.
There's little illustrations on the back.
For those who are seeing the video, he
included these fake million dollar bills that have
a Doberman in the center where the dead
President is supposed to be creative ways to
make sure you get 100% deliverability and opens.
But stuff like that can be duplicated.
Even if you are sending hundreds or thousands
of pieces, you can stick a little whatever
they cost, like 75 cent fabric worried.
All these little dolls, the letter shop
can stick those on the first page.
Your letter can say, as you can
see, I've attached this whatever it is.
Argentinian worry doll.
All I done that well, the answer is quite simple.
I'm worried about you.
See, you are a valued customer of mine,
but I haven't heard from you in whatever
it was, weeks, months, and I'm worried.
So I want to make you this special offer.
Even if you just send a simple letter to
customers who bought from you making a special offer,
we just copy that connects with them in a
way like, hey, I really appreciate your business.
You're extremely important to my
business, and I value you.
And that's why I'm sending you this letter
with this special offer just for you, because
you're one of my VIP customers.
Even if it's that simple, even without all the
fancy grabbers and all that other stuff, it works.
The one mistake I don't want someone to make
is to just go out and blanket mail their
entire list, because that's not a sure way.
Most likely way to lose a lot of money, because
maybe there's people on your list who haven't bought from
you in three years, or maybe they bought three years
ago and they bought a $5 item. Right? Yeah.
And you've never heard from again.
Those are people that you probably don't want to mail.
But if you're mailing your most recent customers,
the people buy more frequently, the multi buyers
people buy the more expensive stuff.
That's as close to a lay down as it was
called by one of my mentors as you can get.
And it doesn't matter if it's a small list.
And you'll find that if you even do some more segmenting,
maybe you'll find there's a smaller segment that you can send
direct mail to even more than once a month.
When I had my supplement business, it was like
once a month, a direct mail piece was going
to go out to a segment of the list.
And it was usually like the most
recent buyers was the bigger segment. Right.
So something monthly will go out
to them in direct mail.
Even though those people were acquired from
online marketing, they still got something direct
mail because it pulled really well.
Pulled much better than email. Right.
As far as conversions go, conversions of sales.
So that was the bigger segment.
That got something.
Then there'd be the smaller segment, the whales,
as I call them, using a Vegas term. Right.
The people who bought more frequently and
bought the higher price stuff, I could
send them direct mail more frequently.
Because you knew the outcome was going
to be so profitable, you could send
more frequently because they were bigger spenders.
The outcome paid for the work. Absolutely.
I was also emailing that list at least
once a day, occasionally two times or more
when there was a special promotion going on.
I never abandoned email.
I just viewed it as email is going
to get a certain segment of buyers.
The direct mail stuff picks up money that I'm not
getting from email, so I just used it all. Yeah.
Dan, I think we've been here longer than
the time that I asked you for.
Thank you so much.
This is brilliant.
Yeah, my pleasure. Yeah.
Time went by really fast. I know, right.
We always have fun talking.
So I think if listeners will do just a
little bit of what you said about mailing, they
will see the immediate benefit and get the results,
which turns into money in the bank. Really?
I always viewed it as found money. Right.
The other channels is not picking up for you.
So this is just some extra found money for you.
Well, I think you just found us a fortune.
Thank you so much. My pleasure.
Thanks for the invitation.
What's the website that people go to to find you?
The main hub to find me is my website at
Ton of articles up there.
And you might want to observe something there, at least
in my particular vertical, which is whatever you want to
call it, selling marketing info to online marketers.
I'm taking a different approach.
When somebody comes to my website, they're offered to opt
in, but I'm not offering to give anything away free.
I'm just offering an online report. You know what?
I break my own rule, and I do wind up giving
something away free, but it's not announced on the website.
And I'm not going to say that that's the
best approach for all online business, just in my
particular niche in my business, like offering something free.
Right upfront attracts a lot of people
that I don't want on my list. Yes.
So I'm specifically saying, like, I'm not
going to give you anything free.
I'll give you access to an online report, which
the big reveal here, the secret revealed is you're
redirected to an offer for one of my books. Right.
So what I'm trying to do with that
process is find the buyers immediately as opposed
to the people who just want something free.
So I'm not offering anything free.
I am giving away something free, though, once I get a
list, which I think is a very valuable report, giving a
lot more details of what we talked about today.
Amy, I think maybe people will hopefully learn a
few things by observing my process and reading some
of the free posts that are on there, too. Absolutely.
Well, I mean, every time I read your stuff and I
get your newsletter and on the first day it comes sitting
there on the dining room table or I go pull it
out of the mailbox, I sit down with that thing immediately.
I look to you, I read
your blog, listen to your podcast.
I mean, all that stuff.
Oh, thank you. Absolutely.
That's the power of sending
something in print too, right?
Like you look forward to it.
You have something in your hand and it's the medium.
It's captivating because who else is using mail?
Hardly anyone. Absolutely. Cool.
Well, let's wrap it up so you can have your day back.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Amy.
I appreciate the invite.
You've been listening to the traffic handler podcast,
getting new customers, making new sales and growing
your retail business with e commerce.
I'm your host, Amy Biddle. Get
more at AmyBiddle.me.
Until next time. Go sell more stuff.
Podcast music by Dan Lebowitz.